This is not directly related to this chapter. However, I was talking with a friend this weekend and he made a great point that I wanted to share.
Suppose there was a man that in some way got stranded on an island. He had never heard anything about God, the church, denominations, conventions, or the Bible. All he had on that deserted island was a copy of the Bible. Because there were no outside influences and no other entertainment he studied that Bible. He diligently learned of the Israelites, the prophecies, the Gospel, and the many letters. He had no commentaries, no preaching and no podcasts.
After a time he was rescued and came to a “civilized” country. He then wished to find a church based upon his study. What do you think would be his thoughts upon arrival at some/many of the churches in America?
Paul, the ultimate church planter? Absolutely! What was his plan? Was it approved by the Southern Baptist Association? Was it developed through extensive research and community surveys? Did he make church more appealing to the masses?
Pg. 111, Paul’s Method “The method of Paul is revealed though his movements and ministry as traced through the book of Acts and his letters. The odd thing about this subject is that Paul knew little about methodology as we use the term. The apostle was a Spirit-led man from start to finish. He depended on the guidance of the Holy Spirit for what he was doing and for what to do next, and we can discover no church-growth formula from his life. His ministry was characterized more by divine anointing than by clever methodology.”
pg.121 Possibly the greatest spiritual deception we can fall into is to think we really love the Lord while having little concern for his people.
Charles Spurgeon said Have you no concern for others to be saved? Then you yourself are not saved.
Phillip, what can we get out of Pauls example? The Holy Spirit is the one that leads. Plant churches. Our culture has changed! We are the church and what we did 20 years ago to reach people is not working today. But, the church is not willing to change. You cannot deny what is going on today through church plants. Go look at Elevation Church in NC. Go look at Mountain Lake Church In Georgia. Look at Church of the Highlands in B'ham. Why are they growing out of control? One, Spirit led people decided to plant a church that is different from my maw maw's church. Now, I dont see anything wrong with my maw maw's church but it isnt going to reach this generation. That is who the church needs to focus on reaching. I drive through Moody every Sunday and see young people by the thousands not going to church. That just breaks my heart in half. We could plant a church that looks different from maw maw's church. People dress different from maw maw's church but the message is the same. THE MESSAGE IS THE SAME. People want to attend a place that they can relate to. A place where they can come AS THEY ARE and hear the gospel in a language they can understand.
We could be reaching this generation if we drop our pride, roll up our sleeves, and get on our knees. Just my thoughts. Mike
Mike, Amen, Amen, AMEN You hit it right on the nose. As I sit here now looking at other churches we might serve, my stomach gets in knots when I think about spending any more time serving a church so caught up in its traditions that it is literally grieving the Holy Spirit. I actually had a guy tell me that 4 part harmony southern gospel music WAS Chistian music. He truly believed in his heart that the praise songs and newer style music of today was not music pleasing to God. When I showed him that most praise songs came right out of scripture, almost word for word it seemed to shock him. Eventualy, this guy began to see the error in his thinking during our visits, but he was just voicing what his peers were wouldn't say. To tell you the truth, the most dissapointing part of my time at Shelby wasn't the style of worship but the secular worldview. I'll gladly take an old fashion church and sing nothing but Gather originals till Christ comes back, if they will just listen to the Word and follow God's lead. Scripture seems to be just a side issue for many. If you ask them if they believed the Bible was the inerrant Word of God they would say yes, but if you expected the church to hold fast to that Word you might find some resistance. One of my joys however, came from the fact that when we left several of the people came up to us individually and said they had never learn or understood so much about God's Word. Several have commented they have missed the Bible studies we did, which let's you know that God's Word will not return to him void no matter the environment.
Wow! I see a lot of passion in your hearts for church plants. That’s cool. While I kinda like some of the new concepts I shy away from the ultra contemporary church thinking. Overall, most of what I see and hear is a move away from the tradition to make church more appealing. My issue is not with the church structure but with the people. There are too many lazy people who sit in church waiting to be fed. Church plants are good. However, my gripe is with an association of 69 churches, no Baptist churches, that can’t come together for one event. I think back to a mission day a few years ago. Very few of the churches could come together. I went and volunteered with one of the smallest churches in our association. They had a heart. Where were the big churches in our county? Couldn’t or wouldn’t get on the same page.
I like to think of myself as a contemporary traditionalist. I believe that tradition and formality have a place in church. I believe that God has a nature of formality. I just read Leviticus. Yes, I know it is OT law. However, it was also God’s original plan. Jesus didn’t do away with the law, he fulfilled the law. I see a ton of “feel good” emotion in the modern church movement. What happens when that emotion fades? For me, the tradition and formality often bring me back to the heart of worship. Some of my best quiet times have come on those mornings where I pry my lazy butt out of bed because I know I should rather than because of my desire. Formality and tradition has its place. I believe that what worked 50 years, 20 years ago will still work today. Not necessarily the whole package but definitely the parts that worked. The Holy Spirit has not changed one bit since the day of Pentecost. He was perfect then and perfect now.
AWESOME AWESOME. This is good stuff. I agree with both of you and respect you highly. As you both know, I came to faith in Christ at 32 years old. I had been away from church since the age of 13. When I got back in, I have to admit that church services didnt look any different. Almost 20 years had went by. Culture has changed. People are now in this world that have NEVER stepped foot in a church. 20 years ago you probably didnt find that much. Today, people come from divorce/drug addiction/sexual addiction/God doesnt exist/all about me/Parents dont know their children/Children dont know their parents. The people that we are trying to reach with what we have done for the past 20,40 years is crazy. 20 years ago their were only a few of those things present and it wasnt as wide spread as it is now. Listen, Gods word never changes. I would never say change the message. But, you have to change the style and programs and music. I love some old stuff but I really dont think the man who lives in todays world that has never been in church could connect with that. Sure you might have some that do but not the majority.
We have got to connect with the people. Not the saints. We have Christ in common with each other. The world does not. We have to connect with them. The church is not here to meet MY need, but the need of the community. If the need of the community is the things I mentioned how in the world will the same ole same ole reach them. Its just not going to. There is no way. How do I know that? Look at our churches. They are NOT REACHING. We better, HEY WE BETTER get together and figure out how to reach them. If that means we have to change then praise God lets change. Listen, we all have one shot at the life God gave us. ONE SHOT. I am to spend that in a relationship with Him, and others.
Jude verse 22 "Be merciful to those who doubt; snatch others from the fire and save them;"
Look, Im an idiot, I dont know much, I really dont, I could be so far off base that elders would want to stone me. But, I see the church sitting around on blessed assurance, wanting to reach, but not willing to change to be able to do that. There is a Godly way to do this. We just need to get together and with much prayer ask our heavenly Father to send His Holy Spirit to guide us in the right direction. Why do we tend to want to make things comfortable for believers, when men, women, and children, are living in our community without Christ. Why cant I step out of my comfort zone and begin to snatch others from the fire. I pray that my heart will be broken for the people in this community, this county. I believe with all my heart the answer is within scripture I just need to be touched by the savior so my eyes can see.
Wow, I enjoyed reading everyone's comments, and hate I fell behind in my posting. As a pastor who was, for a lack of better terms, forced out of a church for "not hanging on the the old traditions" I obviously have some passion over these areas. I believe we need theologically based, doctrinally sound churches, and as a preacher, that is exactly how I preach. But I also believe we can worry too much about "how" things are done, when the truth is, not much is getting "done" at all. Now, as I flip this coin over, I also will state emphatically that reaching a lost and dying world in 2009 DOES NOT REQUIRE we treat everyone like infant Christians. For me, a church that is a mile wide in numbers, but a half inch deep in true Theology and Discipleship is no better than a church, running 10 people, who haven't baptised a soul in 20 years, and contemporary for them would be the 1957 Broadman. And sadly, we can't seem to find a happy medium: Reaching a new generation, and yet discipling them into mature believers. As far as church plants, I have a different view. Much of what we call church planting is simply church relocating. A plant is placing a church in an area void of a Gospel presence, not right between fifty other churches, and pouring money into them that sucks the lives out of every church around them. Now, dont get me wrong, I think churches, at times, need to relocate in order to further the Kingdom, but let's not call it a plant. I love what FBC Woodstock does. They are big enough, wealthy enough, and have a wide enough name that they could plant churches all over the city, and people would come. Instead, they take time, money, and even send people as missionaries into the smaller churches in the surrounding areas, and help them in developing and sustaining a healthy minsitry to the community. They could just as easily take these same people, the same money, and the same resources, start a new church in that community, and it would flourish. But it would also drain the life out of every other church in that area. I heard Dr. Hunt say one time they would rather spend their efforts helping revive a church than delivering the final blow to shut it's doors. WOW, I'm now climbing down off my soap box, and saying again to you all, thanks for running the race. Every one of you have made an impact on my life, and I'm eternally grateful for the Faith Race.
Hey guys, I have been out of town for the past week. I respect all of you, and I don't wish to offend anyone, so hear goes. I believe in this immediate area we have to many churches. That's right, why do we insist on new church plants in this area if the same "Word is being preached"? It is not like anyone has to travel more the 15 minutes to hear the gospel. Please, new churches are being started every day because someone disagrees with the color of the carpet, or when to have the Lord supper, and yes even music. I do like the modern praise songs, but put it into perspective. Go to a concert or buy a CD if that is the main reason for church service attendance. Pg. 111. "The church God blesses is a Jesus church, a church that recognizes that he is the only answer to the need of the human heart". I believe if this is preached then all other aspects can be received and appreciated. Mike, I like the comments about your Maw, Maw church, but think about the christian character those churches produced. Those members were life long attendies, who were faithful through the depression. Why do we insist on clever games or concepts to reach people? New concepts can reach people, just look at Joel Osteen or more better yet Oprah, but the true word transcends all. Pg. 113 "The people God blesses believe their Bibles. They know that the Holy Spirt has not changed one iota in two thousand years (why are we so desperate to change?). What he did then for Paul he will do for us as we yield our hearts to him and learn to listen. Pg.108 "I believe the heart factor is the most overlooked aspect of all our sincere searching for keys to living successfully for Jesus Christ". We need to change hearts.
Great comments thanks. I want to make something clear. I would never speak (against) my maw maws church. She has been a faithful obedient servant through that church since Moses was the pastor. She and many others have done more for the kingdom than I will ever do in my lifetime. The problem is nobody under the age of 50 attends that church. Not saying it is a bad place at all. Its a wonderful place to serve the Lord. Where they live it is booming with young couples with children that will not attend that church. Now, these are not people that have always attended church. Most have never.
I look at some of the churchs in this area and the same thing is going on. I always hear, "there are so many churchs in this area". Well that might be true but it is also true that there are thousands upon thousands of people in this area also that are not going to them. I would say we need to sit down and figure out why. Now, I have had it said to me that they know where the church is, they can come when they get ready. I would say I think that is the problem, the church is no where to be seen. They can see a building, but not the church. Our churches have become silent, blended into the community with no identity. We do have an identity, we are children of God. Silent,,,,,children. Myself included.
I believe in church plants. I have seen people come into the one I am a part of that have never attended church before because, in their own words, they didnt relate, and have come into a relationship with Jesus Christ. THat is a reason to plant churches. Does that mean the exsisting ones are done? Not at all. My heart would ach to see any church close their doors, but in some cases, they already have.
By the way, every church in this area, was started new at some point in time. The reason you start a new church is not because of arguments, its because if every person in this area attend the exsisting churchs, LOTS of people would be standing outside not able to fit through the doors because they would be too packed. 1 Corinthians 12:12 talks about the body being a unit and is made up of "many parts". It also talks about how each part is vital and we should have concern for one another.
Each chuch in this area is part of the body. Each one has members with gifts God gave them. But, if a church plant moves down the street that is reaching people for Christ I cant say Hey, Im the head here we dont need any feet.
I have a heart for people in this area, just as you all do. I would love to see a church plant come here and reach those people. Even if it means they are not going to come to "my" church.
I love each and everyone of you on this blog. I really pray for you daily. You are my brothers in Christ. I hope you all understand what I post on here is what I believe/feel/and experienced. My comments are just that, my comments.
I love and respect each of your oppinions/comments. I take them and sharpen myself to the best I can. Mike
In chapter 12 the writer of Hebrews issues Christians a challenge to run the race of faith. In order to do so we must lay aside every encumbrance and sin that so easily entangles us. We have to learn to run with endurance and keep our eyes fixed on our example, Jesus Christ. How do we accomplish this in our society? We lock arms with other men of faith and run the race.
This blog is dedicated to a “technical” approach to locking arms. This blog is dedicated to online book studies for men. We will read certain chapters from chosen books. Then we will post comments to encourage, inspire, and in some cases stir up other men. So, you are invited to join our online discussion. More importantly, will you accept the challenge to run the race of faith?
11 comments:
This is not directly related to this chapter. However, I was talking with a friend this weekend and he made a great point that I wanted to share.
Suppose there was a man that in some way got stranded on an island. He had never heard anything about God, the church, denominations, conventions, or the Bible. All he had on that deserted island was a copy of the Bible. Because there were no outside influences and no other entertainment he studied that Bible. He diligently learned of the Israelites, the prophecies, the Gospel, and the many letters. He had no commentaries, no preaching and no podcasts.
After a time he was rescued and came to a “civilized” country. He then wished to find a church based upon his study. What do you think would be his thoughts upon arrival at some/many of the churches in America?
WHERE ARE YOU GUYS? Don’t lose faith. We have to keep sharpening the iron.
Paul, the ultimate church planter? Absolutely! What was his plan? Was it approved by the Southern Baptist Association? Was it developed through extensive research and community surveys? Did he make church more appealing to the masses?
Pg. 111, Paul’s Method
“The method of Paul is revealed though his movements and ministry as traced through the book of Acts and his letters. The odd thing about this subject is that Paul knew little about methodology as we use the term. The apostle was a Spirit-led man from start to finish. He depended on the guidance of the Holy Spirit for what he was doing and for what to do next, and we can discover no church-growth formula from his life. His ministry was characterized more by divine anointing than by clever methodology.”
What can we take from his example?
pg.121 Possibly the greatest spiritual deception we can fall into is to think we really love the Lord while having little concern for his people.
Charles Spurgeon said Have you no concern for others to be saved? Then you yourself are not saved.
Phillip, what can we get out of Pauls example? The Holy Spirit is the one that leads. Plant churches.
Our culture has changed! We are the church and what we did 20 years ago to reach people is not working today. But, the church is not willing to change. You cannot deny what is going on today through church plants. Go look at Elevation Church in NC. Go look at Mountain Lake Church In Georgia. Look at Church of the Highlands in B'ham. Why are they growing out of control? One, Spirit led people decided to plant a church that is different from my maw maw's church. Now, I dont see anything wrong with my maw maw's church but it isnt going to reach this generation. That is who the church needs to focus on reaching. I drive through Moody every Sunday and see young people by the thousands not going to church. That just breaks my heart in half. We could plant a church that looks different from maw maw's church. People dress different from maw maw's church but the message is the same. THE MESSAGE IS THE SAME.
People want to attend a place that they can relate to. A place where they can come AS THEY ARE and hear the gospel in a language they can understand.
We could be reaching this generation if we drop our pride, roll up our sleeves, and get on our knees. Just my thoughts.
Mike
Mike,
Amen, Amen, AMEN
You hit it right on the nose. As I sit here now looking at other churches we might serve, my stomach gets in knots when I think about spending any more time serving a church so caught up in its traditions that it is literally grieving the Holy Spirit. I actually had a guy tell me that 4 part harmony southern gospel music WAS Chistian music. He truly believed in his heart that the praise songs and newer style music of today was not music pleasing to God. When I showed him that most praise songs came right out of scripture, almost word for word it seemed to shock him. Eventualy, this guy began to see the error in his thinking during our visits, but he was just voicing what his peers were wouldn't say.
To tell you the truth, the most dissapointing part of my time at Shelby wasn't the style of worship but the secular worldview. I'll gladly take an old fashion church and sing nothing but Gather originals till Christ comes back, if they will just listen to the Word and follow God's lead. Scripture seems to be just a side issue for many. If you ask them if they believed the Bible was the inerrant Word of God they would say yes, but if you expected the church to hold fast to that Word you might find some resistance.
One of my joys however, came from the fact that when we left several of the people came up to us individually and said they had never learn or understood so much about God's Word. Several have commented they have missed the Bible studies we did, which let's you know that God's Word will not return to him void no matter the environment.
Scott
Mike and Scott,
Wow! I see a lot of passion in your hearts for church plants. That’s cool. While I kinda like some of the new concepts I shy away from the ultra contemporary church thinking. Overall, most of what I see and hear is a move away from the tradition to make church more appealing. My issue is not with the church structure but with the people. There are too many lazy people who sit in church waiting to be fed. Church plants are good. However, my gripe is with an association of 69 churches, no Baptist churches, that can’t come together for one event. I think back to a mission day a few years ago. Very few of the churches could come together. I went and volunteered with one of the smallest churches in our association. They had a heart. Where were the big churches in our county? Couldn’t or wouldn’t get on the same page.
I like to think of myself as a contemporary traditionalist. I believe that tradition and formality have a place in church. I believe that God has a nature of formality. I just read Leviticus. Yes, I know it is OT law. However, it was also God’s original plan. Jesus didn’t do away with the law, he fulfilled the law. I see a ton of “feel good” emotion in the modern church movement. What happens when that emotion fades? For me, the tradition and formality often bring me back to the heart of worship. Some of my best quiet times have come on those mornings where I pry my lazy butt out of bed because I know I should rather than because of my desire. Formality and tradition has its place. I believe that what worked 50 years, 20 years ago will still work today. Not necessarily the whole package but definitely the parts that worked. The Holy Spirit has not changed one bit since the day of Pentecost. He was perfect then and perfect now.
AWESOME AWESOME. This is good stuff. I agree with both of you and respect you highly. As you both know, I came to faith in Christ at 32 years old. I had been away from church since the age of 13. When I got back in, I have to admit that church services didnt look any different. Almost 20 years had went by. Culture has changed. People are now in this world that have NEVER stepped foot in a church. 20 years ago you probably didnt find that much. Today, people come from divorce/drug addiction/sexual addiction/God doesnt exist/all about me/Parents dont know their children/Children dont know their parents. The people that we are trying to reach with what we have done for the past 20,40 years is crazy. 20 years ago their were only a few of those things present and it wasnt as wide spread as it is now. Listen, Gods word never changes. I would never say change the message. But, you have to change the style and programs and music. I love some old stuff but I really dont think the man who lives in todays world that has never been in church could connect with that. Sure you might have some that do but not the majority.
We have got to connect with the people. Not the saints. We have Christ in common with each other. The world does not. We have to connect with them. The church is not here to meet MY need, but the need of the community. If the need of the community is the things I mentioned how in the world will the same ole same ole reach them. Its just not going to. There is no way. How do I know that? Look at our churches. They are NOT REACHING. We better, HEY WE BETTER get together and figure out how to reach them. If that means we have to change then praise God lets change. Listen, we all have one shot at the life God gave us. ONE SHOT. I am to spend that in a relationship with Him, and others.
Jude verse 22 "Be merciful to those who doubt; snatch others from the fire and save them;"
Look, Im an idiot, I dont know much, I really dont, I could be so far off base that elders would want to stone me. But, I see the church sitting around on blessed assurance, wanting to reach, but not willing to change to be able to do that. There is a Godly way to do this. We just need to get together and with much prayer ask our heavenly Father to send His Holy Spirit to guide us in the right direction. Why do we tend to want to make things comfortable for believers, when men, women, and children, are living in our community without Christ. Why cant I step out of my comfort zone and begin to snatch others from the fire. I pray that my heart will be broken for the people in this community, this county. I believe with all my heart the answer is within scripture I just need to be touched by the savior so my eyes can see.
Mike
Wow, I enjoyed reading everyone's comments, and hate I fell behind in my posting. As a pastor who was, for a lack of better terms, forced out of a church for "not hanging on the the old traditions" I obviously have some passion over these areas. I believe we need theologically based, doctrinally sound churches, and as a preacher, that is exactly how I preach. But I also believe we can worry too much about "how" things are done, when the truth is, not much is getting "done" at all. Now, as I flip this coin over, I also will state emphatically that reaching a lost and dying world in 2009 DOES NOT REQUIRE we treat everyone like infant Christians. For me, a church that is a mile wide in numbers, but a half inch deep in true Theology and Discipleship is no better than a church, running 10 people, who haven't baptised a soul in 20 years, and contemporary for them would be the 1957 Broadman. And sadly, we can't seem to find a happy medium: Reaching a new generation, and yet discipling them into mature believers. As far as church plants, I have a different view. Much of what we call church planting is simply church relocating. A plant is placing a church in an area void of a Gospel presence, not right between fifty other churches, and pouring money into them that sucks the lives out of every church around them. Now, dont get me wrong, I think churches, at times, need to relocate in order to further the Kingdom, but let's not call it a plant. I love what FBC Woodstock does. They are big enough, wealthy enough, and have a wide enough name that they could plant churches all over the city, and people would come. Instead, they take time, money, and even send people as missionaries into the smaller churches in the surrounding areas, and help them in developing and sustaining a healthy minsitry to the community. They could just as easily take these same people, the same money, and the same resources, start a new church in that community, and it would flourish. But it would also drain the life out of every other church in that area. I heard Dr. Hunt say one time they would rather spend their efforts helping revive a church than delivering the final blow to shut it's doors. WOW, I'm now climbing down off my soap box, and saying again to you all, thanks for running the race. Every one of you have made an impact on my life, and I'm eternally grateful for the Faith Race.
Brad
Hey guys, I have been out of town for the past week. I respect all of you, and I don't wish to offend anyone, so hear goes. I believe in this immediate area we have to many churches. That's right, why do we insist on new church plants in this area if the same "Word is being preached"? It is not like anyone has to travel more the 15 minutes to hear the gospel. Please, new churches are being started every day because someone disagrees with the color of the carpet, or when to have the Lord supper, and yes even music. I do like the modern praise songs, but put it into perspective. Go to a concert or buy a CD if that is the main reason for church service attendance. Pg. 111. "The church God blesses is a Jesus church, a church that recognizes that he is the only answer to the need of the human heart". I believe if this is preached then all other aspects can be received and appreciated. Mike, I like the comments about your Maw, Maw church, but think about the christian character those churches produced. Those members were life long attendies, who were faithful through the depression. Why do we insist on clever games or concepts to reach people? New concepts can reach people, just look at Joel Osteen or more better yet Oprah, but the true word transcends all. Pg. 113 "The people God blesses believe their Bibles. They know that the Holy Spirt has not changed one iota in two thousand years (why are we so desperate to change?). What he did then for Paul he will do for us as we yield our hearts to him and learn to listen. Pg.108 "I believe the heart factor is the most overlooked aspect of all our sincere searching for keys to living successfully for Jesus Christ". We need to change hearts.
Paul
Great comments thanks. I want to make something clear. I would never speak (against) my maw maws church. She has been a faithful obedient servant through that church since Moses was the pastor. She and many others have done more for the kingdom than I will ever do in my lifetime. The problem is nobody under the age of 50 attends that church. Not saying it is a bad place at all. Its a wonderful place to serve the Lord. Where they live it is booming with young couples with children that will not attend that church. Now, these are not people that have always attended church. Most have never.
I look at some of the churchs in this area and the same thing is going on. I always hear, "there are so many churchs in this area". Well that might be true but it is also true that there are thousands upon thousands of people in this area also that are not going to them. I would say we need to sit down and figure out why. Now, I have had it said to me that they know where the church is, they can come when they get ready. I would say I think that is the problem, the church is no where to be seen. They can see a building, but not the church. Our churches have become silent, blended into the community with no identity. We do have an identity, we are children of God. Silent,,,,,children. Myself included.
I believe in church plants. I have seen people come into the one I am a part of that have never attended church before because, in their own words, they didnt relate, and have come into a relationship with Jesus Christ. THat is a reason to plant churches. Does that mean the exsisting ones are done? Not at all. My heart would ach to see any church close their doors, but in some cases, they already have.
By the way, every church in this area, was started new at some point in time. The reason you start a new church is not because of arguments, its because if every person in this area attend the exsisting churchs, LOTS of people would be standing outside not able to fit through the doors because they would be too packed.
1 Corinthians 12:12 talks about the body being a unit and is made up of "many parts". It also talks about how each part is vital and we should have concern for one another.
Each chuch in this area is part of the body. Each one has members with gifts God gave them. But, if a church plant moves down the street that is reaching people for Christ I cant say Hey, Im the head here we dont need any feet.
I have a heart for people in this area, just as you all do. I would love to see a church plant come here and reach those people. Even if it means they are not going to come to "my" church.
I love each and everyone of you on this blog. I really pray for you daily. You are my brothers in Christ. I hope you all understand what I post on here is what I believe/feel/and experienced. My comments are just that, my comments.
I love and respect each of your oppinions/comments. I take them and sharpen myself to the best I can. Mike
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