Pg. 44 "How can we fight the good fight and stand strong against our enemy when our spiritual vital signs are precariously low? How can a church make a positive impact on its community when it can't even get its own members to pray?" OUCH! You know, we have all the best programs, all the trendy names, and the high tech devices, yet people are not hungry for the Lord. Throw a party to watch the iron bowl or the super bowl, and we'll pack the place out. Ask everyone to come to a prayer meeting or outreach, and "something suddenly came up". The first part of chapter 2 has been a great reminder that God's blessings flow when our hearts are hungry and desperate for Him, yet it has also been a grim reminder that I haven't truly been hungry and desperate for God in a long time.
Thanks for the comments last week! Wow! Deep stuff. Thanks for “sharpening the iron.”
I don’t know about you but one of my resolutions this year (as in most years) is to eat better and exercise more. Cymbala nailed me using the “eat right/exercise more” analogies throughout this chapter.
Pg. 43&44 “Just as physical problems result from improper diet and vitamin deficiencies, spiritual problems often result when we are spiritually undernourished.” “It is very possible to be a Christian who is born again in the scriptural sense, but at the same time be ill and weak due to spiritual malnutrition.”
QUESTION TO ALL: Do you think spiritual malnutrition may result from churches and individuals seeking to become so evangelistic and seeking to reach numbers they forget to exercise discipleship? It alarms to me speculate about the number of youth and children who may have been “saved” on retreats or at conferences and soon fade away. I heard a statistic that about 80% of youth leave the church after high school and most never return. Only God knows the condition of their heart but we’ve got to have follow up discipleship.
I don't know that we can become too evangelistic, yet we have definitely dropped the ball on discipleship. Evangelism must be a driving passion of ministry for every local church, because we live in a lost and dying world. If the church is not evangelistic, who will be. Now, on the other end of that coin, we certainly have more to do in the area of discipleship. There must be a balance, and this falls in the area of actively involving new believers into small group Bible study, and assimilating them into ministry. We teach people that a relationship with Jesus is about a warm fuzzy feeling and not about a life-long commitment to the Lordship of Jesus Christ in our lives (discipleship). So to make a long blog shorter, I don't think we should minimize evangelism and maximize discipleship: We must balance the two, and this, unfortunately, is a difficult task.
Well said, Brad. Nor do I think we should minimize evangelism. Agreed, we must do a better job at both. Too much of either diminishes the effectiveness of our ministry. Thanks.
"To grow into spiritual maturity, we need to be conscious everyday of the needs of our inner man and the scriptural reminder that it is good for our hearts to be strengthened by grace."
Wow, I feel like such a heel. As a leader in my local church I sometimes neglect the person that is in need of God daily. "ME"
Brad, thank you from the deepest part of my soul for your prayers.
On page 50, Cymbala makes a very scary observance: "Satan uses anything to keep us from communion with God so he can weaken us and soften us up for his next attack". Whenever we allow Satan to weaken our stand, not only does it hurt us then, but it opens the door for future attacks at this weak point. Even as a pastor, I find myself "too busy" at times. I pray and I read my Bible, but sometimes I do it because I "have to" and not because I have a passion to. Even though I'm "doing the right thing" my heart is not in the right place, and I can feel myself being weakened. And this weakening: It's not just Spiritual, though that is certainly a huge portion of it. I find myself not sleeping well, not exercising well, irritable, etc. This weakening even takes a toll on me physically. And sadly, every time Satan finds me at this point, he "softens me up" to make it even worse the next time. Resolution number 1,000,001 for this year: Not to just stay in His Word and in Prayer, but to PASSIONATELY stay in His Word and in Prayer! Help keep me sharp guys.
as to Phillip's question: I think (sadly) the driving factor here is results. and we must CHANGE the scorecard. The score card must no longer be building, budgets and bodies. It MUST be disciples. It is not that the 3 B'S are bad--they are sometimes-SOMETIMES-a good indicator of growth. But when they are the driving factor...then you get into a situation where 100 kids are 'saved' but 85% leave the church.
Is spiritual malnutrition the key? in part. I think Brad has some very good thoughts on the balance of things, its just that the leadership in our churchs (not just the pastor but the key leaders) need to change the scorecard.
And one more very important thing...making a true disciple takes time.
Concerning your question Phillip, I would agree that what we claim to be a successfull youth program is how many kids are comming. I would say the problem is not that we are evangalizing to much but that are evangalizing is mis-directed and sometimes even heritical. Just as anyone young our old why they got saved and you will be shocked at the answers you get. To often we have told kids and adults to come to Christ to find peace, love, joy..etc. or so they will not go to hell. Instead of demonstrating to them the true condition of their heart. Until they understand they need God because of that condition and the humility it brings they are coming to the cross for the wrong reason. If life gets tough they feel let down by God. If they find things that bring them more happiness they feel they don't need God. There are other issues effecting the rate of departure of our children; parents, youth leaders, culture etc. but at the core is that why a person believes is almost as important as belief itself.
Let's remember one important fact: Salvation is not anything "we" call anyone to: it is the Divine work of the Lord, through the Holy Spirit, of drawing that person to Himself. I'm real cautious at questioning why someone was saved, or whether I did the right thing in helping them get saved, because it's not about me nor up to me. I'm just called to be faithful to sharing the Gospel. I said earlier that we need a balance of evangelism and discipleship in our churches. I guess I need to rethink what I said, and even retract that thought for a second. As much as salvation is a work of the Lord, discipling that new believer is a ministry of the church (Matt. 28:19-20). By saying we need a balance, I fear I'm hoping the Lord will "slow down His salvation" so that I can do a better job at discipling the new believers. It's like running a race and hoping the lead guy will slow down to my pace instead of me doing all I can to keep up with his. Here's where I think we fail: 1) We don't teach what it means to submit to the Lordship of Jesus Christ. 2) We don't teach people to be self-feeders, but that they have to come to church and let us spoon feed them. 3) We don't assimilate new believers into ministry, we expect them to do it themselves. 4) When they leave the church, we chalk it up to their salvation experience (God's part of it) being off based, and not that we failed in discipling them.
I would like to share something with you guys. God can work fast.
Page 51: Why live on junk food of worldly entertainment and be preoccupied with "making it big" in some profession when all of it leaves you empty and unfullfed? This is all to true. I have been struggling for some time, wandering if I should change jobs, something seemed to be lacking. God has trully blessed me at my work and as far as worldly standards I have become very successful, but I felt something was not right. Since this study a few things have happened hear at work. My cousin who is 37,and who I have spoken with a few times, is going to lead his family to join the church they have been visiting this sunday. I think he really needs to speak with the paster to affirm his salvation but a welcome start, I have also recently spoken with a guy in our shop who has about 14 D.U.I. and spent a year in jail. Part of his release program was attending church. He now tells me he is saved and we give words of engourgement at times. I needed to talk with out owner and president the other day. I asked him if he could help me out and he was in his office reading his Bible. The most interesting event took place last week when this study began. A guy I work with is a member of a small church who's paster stepped down and the church was starting to split. We spoke for sometime and I recommended he pray and I told him I would pray. It turns out the following week at church, things were beginning to settle down and he was encouging a prayer meeting.
I know this seams long, however all this just came to mind. I have had high stress levels and anxiety and felt like I was not where I needed to be. It turns out, maybe I was, I just needed to become week so God could take over and work. Please keep up all these prayers, and believe in God's devine power to answer.
Paul J, what a post. Sounds like God is active in your arena now, and has plans to use you where you are. You are right to say that trying to "make it big" leaves you empty and unfulfilled. It's not what we do in life that is so important but who we are living that life for that matters. Take for example Paul's letter to Philemon. Pauls concern is not the issue of slavery or the rights of a slave master, those are just the circumstances. It is that they accept the circumstance, look past them, to see a vision of living for the only thing worth living for, Jesus Christ. (sorry for getting off topic but I just want to respond) God Bless, Scott
Question for RevBrad Do you think the reason we have so much trouble trying to get people to pray in our churches is that they haven't witness the power of prayer and maybe don't believe it has real value or that maybe they just don't really believe period? It scares me to see "beleivers" who will scoff at a miraculous story of answered prayer especially when we can testify to them ourselves. Scott
OUCH! My aching toes! Y’all are smashing me! Thanks, keep it up, O’ men of God! How about this one, pg. 49 “Satan uses a host of distractions, discouragements, and “junk food” substitutes to keep us from receiving the daily nutrition our spirits vitally need.”
Junk food substitutes. Oh how I have filled my life with such. I long to get back to meat and potatoes. Paul J. touched on “junk food” pursuits. Since Paul is both my brother in Christ and my biological brother, I know more of the background of his comments. His situation is truly an amazing work of God. Kim (my wife) metaphorically smacked me in the mouth, though I probably needed it physically, when I was dealing with a difficult work situation. I was really in the middle of a personal pity party and she basically told me that it was not about me and my happiness but my service to God. She said I would never know how God was using me. I slithered away in disgust knowing she was correct.
As you read on page 59 you will see the names Michael and Maria Durso. On the home page there is a link to their church. Check it out if you have time.
In an effort to be brief with our post here it is easy to maybe leave to much to question in our comments. Obviously, salvation is not up to us, however testifying to it's truth and biblically (doctrinally) pointing others toward its need in their lives is critical and commanded. Having made a profession of faith at age 13 I spent until my 42nd year in and out of church and the last 10 of those fairly active. However, I was not saved but lost and no amount of disipleship could have transformed me. It took someone (a woman) with the guts to tell me the problem I was having was not that I wasn't dedicated enough or knew enough but that I was not saved. After truly being born again (a term we need to get back to) no one had to call or visit to get me to come worship God or read my Bible. Please don't misunderstand me I am not trying to sound self-righteous or say evanglism trumps dicipleship. I am trying to say there was a huge difference in the way I viewed those things after the indwelling of the Holy Spirit took place. Churches today have more disipleship training classes and visitation programs than ever. There are more ministries one can get involved in today than ever. Small groups are great and they are everywhere and we have more resources via the internet and Lifeway than one could ever take advantage of in a lifetime. What if, in part, the problem with spirituality in the church is not as much one of dicipleship but salvation itself. Yes, salvation comes only from God, but it is not a parlor trick where a prayer and a baptism gets one a free ticket to heaven. If the creator of the universe comes to live in a person there are going to be evidences of that change, immediatly!, and over time. If we have to keep sending them cards and visiting once a week, or have increasingly more entertaining programs to keep them coming to church something is wrong. As Christian's we don't HAVE to worship & learn about God we GET to. A young man came to me once and told me he wanted to rededicate his life to Christ, so I asked him to tell me what it was like when he was dedicated to Christ the first time. His silence revealed the truth. I would give a million dollars if someone would have said that to me the 2 times I rededicated my life, but it finally took a brave woman to tell me my problem wasn't that I needed more dedication in my life but that I need to be born again, forgiven by the only one who could forgive me, redeemed by the only one that could redeem me and changed by the only one that could change me. Only then could I start my journey through the narrow gate and only then did discipleship have any affect on my life. Lisa did make a good point today when she said, "If you knew the second coming was immenent would you focus more on discipleship or evangelism?" She didn't wait for an answer.
Scott... I think the majority of people have no clue the power of prayer, because they have no clue what prayer is all about. Most people's prayer life consists only of supplication: Placing thier needs and wants before the Lord. Though this is certainly a part of prayer, it should be our last thought. We make prayer all about us, and truthfully, it's all about Him. We all begin prayer with "Lord", or "Heavenly Father" or something of the like. People need to realize that is not just a title, it is a cry of adoration. They say the President of the United States is the most powerful man in the world. And if I travel to Washington D.C., and ask to speak with him, I'll be turned away. My prayer life was transformed by God getting my attention in a mighty way. I have seen the Grand Canyon, Yellowstone, Niagra Falls, the Rockies, the Grand Tetons, and many of the most incredible and scenic places in the world. Ephesians 1:4 says that "before the foundation of the world, He chose me...". Before His hand carved the Grand Canyon, or sculpted the Teton Mountains, He loved me enough that He chose me. When I realized the magnitude of His love and grace, my prayer life stopped being about me, and is now all about Him. I may not could speak to the president, but the King of all Creation longs to share with me every step of my path. And most people do not approach prayer from this perspective, and thus never experience what Jesus meant when He said, "Come to Me". When our focus stops being about us, then we experience the "power" of prayer as the King of Glory begins to fill our cups to overflow. And unfortunately, this is not something we can help people to experience... each believer has to experience it for him/herself, and many probably never do.
Paul, your story has touched me this morning, as have all the post on this blog. I cant get into theological debates. But I just want to say this. Since I have started reading this book, posting and reading your post, I have a deeper desire for prayer in my life. I dont have any scars on my knees and I am ashamed. I aslo have a deeper need for God in my life. Not the God I have come up with but God and who He really is. I desire to be closer and more like Christ tomorrow than I am today. I dont know the answer to "problems" the church has within different areas. But I know this, what we have been doing is not working. We are not reaching. Whats the answer? It could be our hearts. I believe we have made everything way to complicated. I think we have made sermons too hard to understand. The message of the gospel is simple. We need to keep it simple. Im not concerned about how smart my congregation is. Im concerned about their hearts/soul. I am looking for life change. Lets keep it simple. "For God so loved the world He gave his one and only Son that whosoever believes in Him would not perish but have eternal life". Whosoever believes. Not whosoever understands the history of the Isrealites. Just whats on my heart this morning.
Guys Scott's blog reminded me of a saying I have heard "If you have to do a backflip to get them to church, then you will have to do a backflip every Sunday".
"Whosoever believes. Not whosoever understands the history of the Isrealites". Mike, you are speaking from my own heart. I don't feel as versed as you other guys, however I would like to weigh in on "Evanglism" (or to reach others for Christ) and "Discipleship" (to help mature young Christians). Brad stated earlier that 80% of Christians would die without telling one person about Christ. "Why"? I believe young Christians are not being mentored.
"If you knew the second coming was immenent would you focus more on discipleship or evangelism?" Lisa had a good point, but if we have a little more time, could it be possible for us to disciple in order to reach more people. If I am one person and spend my entire life trying to reach the lost, It is possible to reach many, however if each Christian discples another and another and each one then reaches out to the lost. The gain is exponential. Paul was one of the mighty men in the Bible that truly evangelized, however was he not also discipling the young preacher boy Timothy? I believe we have the "Chicken and the egg"
WOW good good points. I do want to say that I believe the history of the Isrealites is very important. Please hear my heart on this. Disipleship is very important especially in kids and teenagers. I have been a follower of Christ for 6 years now, discipleship has helped me very much and continues to do so. It still works today.
Evangelism, most of you guys know my heart in this area. After coming to know Christ at the age of 32 strung out on cocaine, my heart was broken for people. I wanted to go out and tell everyone about what God had done in my life. I joined a church and I had not been in church since I was 13 years old. I quickly found out that not everyone shared the same heart. I found a few men who so desired to share the gospel with others that they went out on a cold night and walked the praking lot at Food World handing out tracs. That effort was not recieved well from church people. EVANGELISM IN THE CHURCH NEEDS A BAILOUT! It is in dire staits. I met a young man at the Jimmie Hale Mission one night and He told me his story of addiction and Jesus. He had FIRE in his eyes when he told me his story. He was so pumped up about what God had done for him, and he said he wanted to tell everyone. It reminded me of the fire I once had in my heart to tell everyone. I think RevBrad said it best on his first post on this page. I havent truly been hungry and desperate for God in a long time. If I seek God's own heart as David did, I will have a heart for others. Evangelism will not have to be taught, it will automatically happen in my life.
I am excited about ch. 3 hey I do want you all to know that I pray for you. We are in this race together. I know that as I run you will help me keep my eyes focused on the prize!!! I thank you all for that. One last thing before I stop typing. Please pray for me this Sunday, I am preaching a sermon on Worship. I am changing things up a bit, I plan on preaching first and then do praise songs. I like to be different. Thank you in advance for your prayers.
In chapter 12 the writer of Hebrews issues Christians a challenge to run the race of faith. In order to do so we must lay aside every encumbrance and sin that so easily entangles us. We have to learn to run with endurance and keep our eyes fixed on our example, Jesus Christ. How do we accomplish this in our society? We lock arms with other men of faith and run the race.
This blog is dedicated to a “technical” approach to locking arms. This blog is dedicated to online book studies for men. We will read certain chapters from chosen books. Then we will post comments to encourage, inspire, and in some cases stir up other men. So, you are invited to join our online discussion. More importantly, will you accept the challenge to run the race of faith?
20 comments:
Pg. 44 "How can we fight the good fight and stand strong against our enemy when our spiritual vital signs are precariously low? How can a church make a positive impact on its community when it can't even get its own members to pray?" OUCH! You know, we have all the best programs, all the trendy names, and the high tech devices, yet people are not hungry for the Lord. Throw a party to watch the iron bowl or the super bowl, and we'll pack the place out. Ask everyone to come to a prayer meeting or outreach, and "something suddenly came up". The first part of chapter 2 has been a great reminder that God's blessings flow when our hearts are hungry and desperate for Him, yet it has also been a grim reminder that I haven't truly been hungry and desperate for God in a long time.
Brad
Thanks for the comments last week! Wow! Deep stuff. Thanks for “sharpening the iron.”
I don’t know about you but one of my resolutions this year (as in most years) is to eat better and exercise more. Cymbala nailed me using the “eat right/exercise more” analogies throughout this chapter.
Pg. 43&44 “Just as physical problems result from improper diet and vitamin deficiencies, spiritual problems often result when we are spiritually undernourished.” “It is very possible to be a Christian who is born again in the scriptural sense, but at the same time be ill and weak due to spiritual malnutrition.”
QUESTION TO ALL: Do you think spiritual malnutrition may result from churches and individuals seeking to become so evangelistic and seeking to reach numbers they forget to exercise discipleship? It alarms to me speculate about the number of youth and children who may have been “saved” on retreats or at conferences and soon fade away. I heard a statistic that about 80% of youth leave the church after high school and most never return. Only God knows the condition of their heart but we’ve got to have follow up discipleship.
I don't know that we can become too evangelistic, yet we have definitely dropped the ball on discipleship. Evangelism must be a driving passion of ministry for every local church, because we live in a lost and dying world. If the church is not evangelistic, who will be. Now, on the other end of that coin, we certainly have more to do in the area of discipleship. There must be a balance, and this falls in the area of actively involving new believers into small group Bible study, and assimilating them into ministry. We teach people that a relationship with Jesus is about a warm fuzzy feeling and not about a life-long commitment to the Lordship of Jesus Christ in our lives (discipleship). So to make a long blog shorter, I don't think we should minimize evangelism and maximize discipleship: We must balance the two, and this, unfortunately, is a difficult task.
Brad
Well said, Brad. Nor do I think we should minimize evangelism. Agreed, we must do a better job at both. Too much of either diminishes the effectiveness of our ministry. Thanks.
"To grow into spiritual maturity, we need to be conscious everyday of the needs of our inner man and the scriptural reminder that it is good for our hearts to be strengthened by grace."
Wow, I feel like such a heel. As a leader in my local church I sometimes neglect the person that is in need of God daily. "ME"
Brad, thank you from the deepest part of my soul for your prayers.
I have really taken alot away from your comments.
MIke Uptain
On page 50, Cymbala makes a very scary observance: "Satan uses anything to keep us from communion with God so he can weaken us and soften us up for his next attack". Whenever we allow Satan to weaken our stand, not only does it hurt us then, but it opens the door for future attacks at this weak point. Even as a pastor, I find myself "too busy" at times. I pray and I read my Bible, but sometimes I do it because I "have to" and not because I have a passion to. Even though I'm "doing the right thing" my heart is not in the right place, and I can feel myself being weakened. And this weakening: It's not just Spiritual, though that is certainly a huge portion of it. I find myself not sleeping well, not exercising well, irritable, etc. This weakening even takes a toll on me physically. And sadly, every time Satan finds me at this point, he "softens me up" to make it even worse the next time. Resolution number 1,000,001 for this year: Not to just stay in His Word and in Prayer, but to PASSIONATELY stay in His Word and in Prayer! Help keep me sharp guys.
BRAD
as to Phillip's question: I think (sadly) the driving factor here is results. and we must CHANGE the scorecard. The score card must no longer be building, budgets and bodies. It MUST be disciples. It is not that the 3 B'S are bad--they are sometimes-SOMETIMES-a good indicator of growth. But when they are the driving factor...then you get into a situation where 100 kids are 'saved' but 85% leave the church.
Is spiritual malnutrition the key? in part. I think Brad has some very good thoughts on the balance of things, its just that the leadership in our churchs (not just the pastor but the key leaders) need to change the scorecard.
And one more very important thing...making a true disciple takes time.
Phillip just brought me the book.
Will respond shortly
Paul
Concerning your question Phillip, I would agree that what we claim to be a successfull youth program is how many kids are comming. I would say the problem is not that we are evangalizing to much but that are evangalizing is mis-directed and sometimes even heritical. Just as anyone young our old why they got saved and you will be shocked at the answers you get. To often we have told kids and adults to come to Christ to find peace, love, joy..etc. or so they will not go to hell. Instead of demonstrating to them the true condition of their heart. Until they understand they need God because of that condition and the humility it brings they are coming to the cross for the wrong reason. If life gets tough they feel let down by God. If they find things that bring them more happiness they feel they don't need God.
There are other issues effecting the rate of departure of our children; parents, youth leaders, culture etc. but at the core is that why a person believes is almost as important as belief itself.
Scott
Let's remember one important fact: Salvation is not anything "we" call anyone to: it is the Divine work of the Lord, through the Holy Spirit, of drawing that person to Himself. I'm real cautious at questioning why someone was saved, or whether I did the right thing in helping them get saved, because it's not about me nor up to me. I'm just called to be faithful to sharing the Gospel. I said earlier that we need a balance of evangelism and discipleship in our churches. I guess I need to rethink what I said, and even retract that thought for a second. As much as salvation is a work of the Lord, discipling that new believer is a ministry of the church (Matt. 28:19-20). By saying we need a balance, I fear I'm hoping the Lord will "slow down His salvation" so that I can do a better job at discipling the new believers. It's like running a race and hoping the lead guy will slow down to my pace instead of me doing all I can to keep up with his. Here's where I think we fail: 1) We don't teach what it means to submit to the Lordship of Jesus Christ. 2) We don't teach people to be self-feeders, but that they have to come to church and let us spoon feed them. 3) We don't assimilate new believers into ministry, we expect them to do it themselves. 4) When they leave the church, we chalk it up to their salvation experience (God's part of it) being off based, and not that we failed in discipling them.
Brad
I would like to share something with you guys. God can work fast.
Page 51: Why live on junk food of worldly entertainment and be preoccupied with "making it big" in some profession when all of it leaves you empty and unfullfed?
This is all to true. I have been struggling for some time, wandering if I should change jobs, something seemed to be lacking. God has trully blessed me at my work and as far as worldly standards I have become very successful, but I felt something was not right. Since this study a few things have happened hear at work. My cousin who is 37,and who I have spoken with a few times, is going to lead his family to join the church they have been visiting this sunday. I think he really needs to speak with the paster to affirm his salvation but a welcome start, I have also recently spoken with a guy in our shop who has about 14 D.U.I. and spent a year in jail. Part of his release program was attending church. He now tells me he is saved and we give words of engourgement at times. I needed to talk with out owner and president the other day. I asked him if he could help me out and he was in his office reading his Bible. The most interesting event took place last week when this study began. A guy I work with is a member of a small church who's paster stepped down and the church was starting to split. We spoke for sometime and I recommended he pray and I told him I would pray. It turns out the following week at church, things were beginning to settle down and he was encouging a prayer meeting.
I know this seams long, however all this just came to mind. I have had high stress levels and anxiety and felt like I was not where I needed to be. It turns out, maybe I was, I just needed to become week so God could take over and work. Please keep up all these prayers, and believe in God's devine power to answer.
Paul J.
Paul J, what a post. Sounds like God is active in your arena now, and has plans to use you where you are. You are right to say that trying to "make it big" leaves you empty and unfulfilled. It's not what we do in life that is so important but who we are living that life for that matters. Take for example Paul's letter to Philemon. Pauls concern is not the issue of slavery or the rights of a slave master, those are just the circumstances. It is that they accept the circumstance, look past them, to see a vision of living for the only thing worth living for, Jesus Christ.
(sorry for getting off topic but I just want to respond)
God Bless,
Scott
Question for RevBrad
Do you think the reason we have so much trouble trying to get people to pray in our churches is that they haven't witness the power of prayer and maybe don't believe it has real value or that maybe they just don't really believe period? It scares me to see "beleivers" who will scoff at a miraculous story of answered prayer especially when we can testify to them ourselves.
Scott
OUCH! My aching toes! Y’all are smashing me! Thanks, keep it up, O’ men of God! How about this one, pg. 49 “Satan uses a host of distractions, discouragements, and “junk food” substitutes to keep us from receiving the daily nutrition our spirits vitally need.”
Junk food substitutes. Oh how I have filled my life with such. I long to get back to meat and potatoes. Paul J. touched on “junk food” pursuits. Since Paul is both my brother in Christ and my biological brother, I know more of the background of his comments. His situation is truly an amazing work of God. Kim (my wife) metaphorically smacked me in the mouth, though I probably needed it physically, when I was dealing with a difficult work situation. I was really in the middle of a personal pity party and she basically told me that it was not about me and my happiness but my service to God. She said I would never know how God was using me. I slithered away in disgust knowing she was correct.
As you read on page 59 you will see the names Michael and Maria Durso. On the home page there is a link to their church. Check it out if you have time.
In an effort to be brief with our post here it is easy to maybe leave to much to question in our comments. Obviously, salvation is not up to us, however testifying to it's truth and biblically (doctrinally) pointing others toward its need in their lives is critical and commanded. Having made a profession of faith at age 13 I spent until my 42nd year in and out of church and the last 10 of those fairly active. However, I was not saved but lost and no amount of disipleship could have transformed me. It took someone (a woman) with the guts to tell me the problem I was having was not that I wasn't dedicated enough or knew enough but that I was not saved. After truly being born again (a term we need to get back to) no one had to call or visit to get me to come worship God or read my Bible. Please don't misunderstand me I am not trying to sound self-righteous or say evanglism trumps dicipleship. I am trying to say there was a huge difference in the way I viewed those things after the indwelling of the Holy Spirit took place. Churches today have more disipleship training classes and visitation programs than ever. There are more ministries one can get involved in today than ever. Small groups are great and they are everywhere and we have more resources via the internet and Lifeway than one could ever take advantage of in a lifetime. What if, in part, the problem with spirituality in the church is not as much one of dicipleship but salvation itself. Yes, salvation comes only from God, but it is not a parlor trick where a prayer and a baptism gets one a free ticket to heaven. If the creator of the universe comes to live in a person there are going to be evidences of that change, immediatly!, and over time. If we have to keep sending them cards and visiting once a week, or have increasingly more entertaining programs to keep them coming to church something is wrong. As Christian's we don't HAVE to worship & learn about God we GET to.
A young man came to me once and told me he wanted to rededicate his life to Christ, so I asked him to tell me what it was like when he was dedicated to Christ the first time. His silence revealed the truth. I would give a million dollars if someone would have said that to me the 2 times I rededicated my life, but it finally took a brave woman to tell me my problem wasn't that I needed more dedication in my life but that I need to be born again, forgiven by the only one who could forgive me, redeemed by the only one that could redeem me and changed by the only one that could change me. Only then could I start my journey through the narrow gate and only then did discipleship have any affect on my life.
Lisa did make a good point today when she said, "If you knew the second coming was immenent would you focus more on discipleship or evangelism?" She didn't wait for an answer.
Scott
Phillip, I seem to be be married to the same women. She never lets me have those pity parties I do desperatly love to have from time to time.
Scott
Scott... I think the majority of people have no clue the power of prayer, because they have no clue what prayer is all about. Most people's prayer life consists only of supplication: Placing thier needs and wants before the Lord. Though this is certainly a part of prayer, it should be our last thought. We make prayer all about us, and truthfully, it's all about Him. We all begin prayer with "Lord", or "Heavenly Father" or something of the like. People need to realize that is not just a title, it is a cry of adoration. They say the President of the United States is the most powerful man in the world. And if I travel to Washington D.C., and ask to speak with him, I'll be turned away. My prayer life was transformed by God getting my attention in a mighty way. I have seen the Grand Canyon, Yellowstone, Niagra Falls, the Rockies, the Grand Tetons, and many of the most incredible and scenic places in the world. Ephesians 1:4 says that "before the foundation of the world, He chose me...". Before His hand carved the Grand Canyon, or sculpted the Teton Mountains, He loved me enough that He chose me. When I realized the magnitude of His love and grace, my prayer life stopped being about me, and is now all about Him. I may not could speak to the president, but the King of all Creation longs to share with me every step of my path. And most people do not approach prayer from this perspective, and thus never experience what Jesus meant when He said, "Come to Me". When our focus stops being about us, then we experience the "power" of prayer as the King of Glory begins to fill our cups to overflow. And unfortunately, this is not something we can help people to experience... each believer has to experience it for him/herself, and many probably never do.
Paul, your story has touched me this morning, as have all the post on this blog.
I cant get into theological debates. But I just want to say this. Since I have started reading this book, posting and reading your post, I have a deeper desire for prayer in my life. I dont have any scars on my knees and I am ashamed. I aslo have a deeper need for God in my life. Not the God I have come up with but God and who He really is. I desire to be closer and more like Christ tomorrow than I am today. I dont know the answer to "problems" the church has within different areas. But I know this, what we have been doing is not working. We are not reaching. Whats the answer? It could be our hearts. I believe we have made everything way to complicated. I think we have made sermons too hard to understand. The message of the gospel is simple. We need to keep it simple. Im not concerned about how smart my congregation is. Im concerned about their hearts/soul. I am looking for life change. Lets keep it simple. "For God so loved the world He gave his one and only Son that whosoever believes in Him would not perish but have eternal life". Whosoever believes. Not whosoever understands the history of the Isrealites. Just whats on my heart this morning.
Mike Uptain
Guys Scott's blog reminded me of a saying I have heard "If you have to do a backflip to get them to church, then you will have to do a backflip every Sunday".
"Whosoever believes. Not whosoever understands the history of the Isrealites". Mike, you are speaking from my own heart. I don't feel as versed as you other guys, however I would like to weigh in on "Evanglism" (or to reach others for Christ) and "Discipleship" (to help mature young Christians). Brad stated earlier that 80% of Christians would die without telling one person about Christ. "Why"? I believe young Christians are not being mentored.
"If you knew the second coming was immenent would you focus more on discipleship or evangelism?" Lisa had a good point, but if we have a little more time, could it be possible for us to disciple in order to reach more people. If I am one person and spend my entire life trying to reach the lost, It is possible to reach many, however if each Christian discples another and another and each one then reaches out to the lost. The gain is exponential. Paul was one of the mighty men in the Bible that truly evangelized, however was he not also discipling the young preacher boy Timothy? I believe we have the "Chicken and the egg"
Paul J.
WOW good good points. I do want to say that I believe the history of the Isrealites is very important. Please hear my heart on this.
Disipleship is very important especially in kids and teenagers. I have been a follower of Christ for 6 years now, discipleship has helped me very much and continues to do so. It still works today.
Evangelism, most of you guys know my heart in this area. After coming to know Christ at the age of 32 strung out on cocaine, my heart was broken for people. I wanted to go out and tell everyone about what God had done in my life. I joined a church and I had not been in church since I was 13 years old. I quickly found out that not everyone shared the same heart. I found a few men who so desired to share the gospel with others that they went out on a cold night and walked the praking lot at Food World handing out tracs. That effort was not recieved well from church people. EVANGELISM IN THE CHURCH NEEDS A BAILOUT! It is in dire staits. I met a young man at the Jimmie Hale Mission one night and He told me his story of addiction and Jesus. He had FIRE in his eyes when he told me his story. He was so pumped up about what God had done for him, and he said he wanted to tell everyone. It reminded me of the fire I once had in my heart to tell everyone. I think RevBrad said it best on his first post on this page. I havent truly been hungry and desperate for God in a long time. If I seek God's own heart as David did, I will have a heart for others. Evangelism will not have to be taught, it will automatically happen in my life.
I am excited about ch. 3 hey I do want you all to know that I pray for you. We are in this race together. I know that as I run you will help me keep my eyes focused on the prize!!! I thank you all for that. One last thing before I stop typing. Please pray for me this Sunday, I am preaching a sermon on Worship. I am changing things up a bit, I plan on preaching first and then do praise songs. I like to be different. Thank you in advance for your prayers.
Mike
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