Alright guys, this is a big one. We, as Baptist, are just about alone in the "Eternal Security" camp. Many Christians believe you can lose your salvation. So what is the answer? Is eternal security Biblical or is it an “insurance policy” created by man to make us feel better about ourselves? Has the Bible shaped our theology or has our theology twisted what the Bible actually says? This is huge. Can we really afford to miss this one? Let’s hit it!
14 comments:
John 10:28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish, no one can snatch them out of my hand (Are we stronger than God? If not we can't even snatch our self out or God's hands)
John 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive out
We are not saved by any works or actions, we can only find salvation through Faith in Jesus Christ. If we can't be saved by works or deeds, than how can we ever loose salvation by works or deeds?
One misunderstood scripture people like to use for losing salvation is
Hebrews 6:4-6 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.
My preacher preached on this Sunday, He said this scripture was a warning to the young Jewish converts. They accepted Christ as savior but there was alot of pressure to continue with the old Jewish customs. Refering mostly to animal sacrifice. So if they trusted Christ but later where pressured to continue the Jewish customs they in a since blaphemed Christ and made his sacrifice void to them. I personaly think this may be in part the unforgiveable sin.
Paul
What part exactly do we play in being saved? Romans 5:9-11 speaks volumes to this. If we are God's enemy when he forgives us, how much more will he keep us now that we have been adopted. Adoption is forever. You dont give a child your name and take it back if they upset you do you? Why go back under the yoke of works when Christ has completed the work.1 Tim 1:9 He called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity. That doesnt mean live like the devil and get away free, there are physical and eternal consequences to that. People dont believe your testimony when you give in to temptation for one. There can be many more consequences. It means if you love God, obey him! Spend your time in fellowship with God and focus on things that are noble, true and just... then you wont be living your life trying not to sin. If you focus your attention on not sinning instead of on God it makes living the Christian life burdensome. If you are focused on God then serving God in love is quite easy. Loving others is easier.
I will have more of a post later, but here is my initial response.
Yes, salvation can be lost. I understand the arguments and scriptures on both sides. I have a list for both sitting next to me right now. I have heard the quote “then that person was never really saved,” until I want to put earphones on. However…
The verse Paul quoted before is a very good one (Hebrews 6: 4-6). I believe that it speaks to current Christians. The phrase about tasting the Holy gift is the give away. I believe that it leads us to know that if someone was truly a Christian, and then later on denied God, they would be crucifying Christ again, thus losing their salvation.
Even if the verse is speaking to young Jews who have come to know Christ, they still have “tasted of the Heavenly Gift.” That heavenly gift is salvation. Then they turn their backs on it. God lays down the law and says that is unforgivable. Also, was that not the case, what is the point behind the verse? Someone who never had salvation can not lose it.
I have the feeling that I am about to become the whipping boy on this post……oh well!
Paul, you hit the nail on the head and covered pretty much all the ground that I feel needs to be covered. What I can't understand is, why is it that Southern Baptist are pretty much alone in this doctrinal belief? I'm not sure everyone that is reading these posts, but is there anyone here who does not believe in eternal security? I've been Southern Baptist since birth, have a masters and doctorate degree from southern baptist seminaries, so obviously, that's all I know. If this doctrine, which is foundational for us as Baptist, is so clear, then why does everyone not believe it?
This should to be an interesting discussion. Let me start by saying that I abhor the phrase "One Saved, Always Saved"(which is not in scripture). My dislike for the use of this phrase isn't because I don't believe in eternal salvation but because of how it has been misused and misunderstood. The problem is that the focus of the phrase is most often on the "Always Saved" part, when in reality it is the “Once Saved” part that is the issue. During discussions about this topic with friends who are of other denominations, I have found that we differ very little on the subject. What they (and I) have a problem with is believing that praying a prayer and getting baptized is the evidence of one being a child of God. It hurts to here some parent state they know their child is saved because they saw them go down during a rival when they were 14 and they got baptized the next Sunday, when that child has no visible evidence they care one bit about the things of God. Because they have believe that once you have been saved you are always saved they assume their child is just a backslider but will go to heaven. Therefore, they don't fret over the lost condition of their child or go to great lengths to witness to them.
If you ask someone how they know they are saved many will point to some time in the past when they accepted Christ as their Lord and Savior. It would be my contention that scripture teaches us that the evidence of salvation in a persons life is what has happened to them every day since that day. I prayed a prayer and was baptized at age 13 but had I died before Aug. 8th 2004 I would have gone to hell. Why, because Jesus was not the LORD of my life, I was. I had just added some declarations and completed some requirements and then added Jesus to the mix of my life. That is not a picture of salvation given us in scripture. It is impossible to have the Spirit of our Creator indwell in our soul and we not be radically changed by that event. If that indwelling occurs it will be obvious to everyone. Things will change, people will scoff (even other christians), fruit will be evident, focus will change, and ministry will take place in some form.
Now, once salvation truly happens their is no reason for God to keep us from His kingdom, and no one in their “right” mind (having been truly saved) would then reject Christ. It would be like throwing away a parachute when you know the plane is going to crash. Paul or was it Peter said it best, “they left us because they never knew us”. The book of James deals with this issue as does almost every other one in some way. Salvation is purely a matter of faith which is possible because of the grace of God. It is being “Born Again in the power of the Holy Spirit. You can't earn it which is why saying a prayer and a getting baptized, in and of itself, will not gain one salvation. If it did you could say you have earned the right because you did the deeds. Just look at the man on the cross next to Jesus. He didn't pray, (as far as we know), and he wasn't baptized (although if he could have gotten off that cross he would have submitted to baptism, I'm sure)
God help us if we use phrases like “one saved always saved” to help others feel comfortable about their condition when the Holy Spirit is convicting them for the lack of evidences in their lives of that salvation. Salvation and Works are like Salt & Pepper, you always see them together. However, only God's grace can save us and therefore only our rejection of that truth could leave us in our condemned position.
Scott
Alright Paul and Brandon, I’m confused on both of your points regarding the Hebrews 6:4-6 verse. I’ve read it several times. Here it is in the New King James.
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away,to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
For ease of reading and with no disrespect for the Scriptures I took out the part that contains descriptions of “those” which I think we can agree are those that are saved.
So the verse reads:
For it is impossible for those, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
I’m reading this verse differently than Paul and Brandon. I’m reading it as that is it impossible to renew them. For instance, I can’t “renew” my fatherhood to my sons because it can’t be taken away. They can run away from home, deny my name, and never speak to me again but the fact is that I am still their father.
Also, what does “fall away” mean. It doesn’t say it is the unpardonable sin. I have fallen away in my walk. I have felt that I was walking in God’s footsteps at times and at other times I was lost in the woods with God nowhere to be found. Does that mean that my salvation was gone because I had fallen away. I don’t think so.
If Grace is God's unmerited favor? And I believe it is? That would lead us to the clear principle that salvation is from the Lord (His doing). We do not merit, earn or deserve it. If we had nothing to do with the possession of our eternal salvation then what makes us think that we have anything to do with the retention of it. I realize this is kind of a simple thought but Grace in my opinion is not complicated. The idea that we can possess salvation through God's Grace and retain it through our merit smacks of a misunderstanding of the base definition of Grace itself.
Just as a side note:
- If God is sovereign in Salvation –(like he is in every other area of our life) then, the idea that God gives and takes away salvation based on our merit is hard to swallow.
I do understand that not everyone agrees with me on this:
But I believe that salvation is of the Lord- Meaning that He has chosen and predestined those who are saved. (Eph 1, Romans 8:29, etc.)
To embrace that God has chosen and predestined those who are saved – would mean that you can’t logically embrace losing your salvation. If you try to mesh the two, the picture that you must paint is of a God that knows and chooses those who are saved but sometimes he has to unchoose folks for sinning. Unchoose really? For a sovereign God- this is real hard to believe.
*** I’m not trying to open a debate on this- I just believe it is applicable to our view on this particular issue. I am not a hypercalvanist so please save the comments about my emphasis on personal evangelism. Evangelism is a command, and this may shock you but I don’t know who God will save so I have to be obedient to that command and share with all those who will hear***
How can a person "taste" eternal life? Either it is eternal or it is not. The greek word used for taste is the same word used to say that Christ "tasted" death. So, tell me. Did Christ dabble in death or did he drink it down to the last dregs? He went all the way, did he not? I believe these people Paul was talking to were not in danger of losing their salvation or their Eternal Security, they were about to lose their Eternal Assurance. Their salvation was paid and secured by Christ. They were redeemed. That means bought and paid for. A kings ransom was paid for them.
What is the difference between security and assurance then? If a man wants to buy something with his check card, what matters the most? Lets say he wants a 200 dollar fishing pole but he thinks he only has 150.00 So he goes on line and checks his balance and it says he has 300.00
He had the money all along. He was secure to buy the rod but he had no assurance. The bank statement gave him assurance so he bought the rod. We can loose our assurance and live in fear of not living up to the standard, or we can trust the scriptures and believe it when it says no can be snatched from the fathers hand. The 300 bucks was in the account whether he believed it or not.
You can live your Christian life in fear or you can live your Christian life in HOPE. Not ohh I hope I am right, but Hope in that God does not lie! God is truth! God is trustworthy! God is Just and HE paid YOUR price because you could not!
I think people get weary of trying not to sin, when if they would just concentrate on loving God and following Him they would find it much easier. If sin in your life is revealed to you by the Holy Spirit, that doesnt mean you are going to Hell, that means you have the deposit, the promised Holy Spirit. (Eph 1)
Repent and learn from it. Agree with God it is Sin and despise it. Dont dwell on not sinning. Dwell on the things Paul suggests. Things that are noble, true, just, right...
Welcome Brent and PBW to the blog. Thanks for your thoughts and for chimming in.
PBW: Great explanation of security and assurance. Never thought of it that way.
Brent: You hypercalvanist! Just kidding. Thanks for your thoughts. It does open up some issues on predestination. Maybe...the next topic?
I asked my pastor to review with me his sermon concerning eternal salvation and here was his response "Hebrews 6:4-6 is a warning to those that were under pressure to those that still held on to Jewish traditions. Their warning was that they could wind up like their fore fathers and never leave the wilderness while others progress on and enter the promise land. Those that died in the wilderness were not necessarily lost but they did lose their opportunity to enter the promise land which is a picture of maturity of faith and not heaven. A believer can no more forfeit their salvation than God can cease to exist. The question of salvation is nowhere in this context. Thus he is not warning about the possible loss of salvation. Rather, the writer is viewing a believers experience as a journey from infancy to maturity. It was God's design that there should be steady, uninterrupted progress from immaturity to maturity. It is possible, however, that the journey might be interrupted, that the nature of the interruption might be such that their progress toward maturity would be permanently hindered, and that the believer would revert to a state of infancy from which there would be no deliverance. Thus the "falling away" is a believer's failure to progress to maturity. He illustrated this by using Israel as an example. Yet it has been said that if this passage were interrupted to mean one could lose their salvation which I don't believe that it is, the sin committed could not be committed today. This closes the argument even more so for those that use this passage as an opportunity to say that you can lose your salvation. Pentecost says this "He therefore states in verses 4-6 that it may be impossible to renew certain believers so that they can progress toward maturity. This is a serious, and sobering warning the apostle brings to all those who have regressed to a state of infancy!"
If we can loose our salvation, then how is this done?
Acts 5 1-5 talks about sexual immorality with a man and his mother that does not occur even among pagans: Later on in the passage it says to "hand him over to satan so that the sinful nature may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the lord.
Paul
I agree about the passage in Hebrews. Nowhere in the Bible does scripture ever talk about tasting Jesus,eternal life ect. It does talk about drinking the living water so that we would never be thirsty again and eating of the body at the last supper, and the drinking of his blood. This passage does not mention salvation neither, it mentions repentence "to change ones mind". We are saved by faith and repentance is a part of that salvation, but we can be sorry and not be saved. Whether this verse is or is not speaking to Christians is still not 100% although many think so. There are many passages that can sound like you christians can loe salvation. For instance, REV 3:5 says, He that "overcometh" the same shall be clothed in white in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book Of Life but I will confess my name before my Father and before His Angels. So what if we do not overcome the world? Is He going to blot us put of the Book of Life? NO!! This is a promise that he never will. What or who are the ones that will "overcome"? 1 John 5:4-5 says For whatsoever is born of God "overcomes" the world. Who is he that "overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God. Who are the overcomers? Christians. He will never blot us out of the Book of Life. It is a promise. King David also describes in Romans 4:6 Blessed is the man whom God imputes Righteousness apart from works. That one verse says it all. We are declared righteous and justified from our Faith in Christ only, APART from works. If this is the case then how can we lose Salvation? WOW, Romans 5:1 says therefore having been justified by FAITH, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Paul warns us here not to take advantage of Grace becuase we are DEAD to sin. Romans 6:1,2 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin so that grace may abound? Certainly not! How can WE WHO DIED TO SIN live any longer in it? Romans 6:5-11 For if we habe been united together in the likeness of his death,certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection,knowing this,OUR OLD MAN WAS CRUCIFIED with him that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. FOR HE WHO HAS DIED HAS BEEN FREED FROM SIN. Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him,knowing that Christ having been raised from the dead,dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. For the death that he died, He died to sin ONCE AND FOR ALL;but the life that He lives,He lives to God. Likewise YOU(Christians) also reckon yourselves to be DEAD INDEED TO SIN, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord. How can we who are dead to sin lose our salvation from sin? Once again it is because we are declared righteous and justified by our FAITH in Christ. Two more and i'm finished for now. One for eternal security and one that "some" say it says that you can lose it. The "lose it " first. Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin willfully after we have recieved the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins. He was speaking to the ones that wnated to keep to the old way of getting forgiveness which was animal sacrifices and would not trust in Christ for that one a final sacrifice. He is telling them there is no other sacrifice that can save you from HELL. Hebrews 9:11-15 explains this perfectly. Two more: Ephesians 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. how can we lose Him if we are sealed until the day of Redemption? Follow me on this please Romans 11:29 For the GIFTS and His CALL are irrevocable(he will not take them back). GIFTS.....
Eternal life is a gift of God Rom 6:23 John 10:28
Salvation(grace) is a gift from God Ephesians 2:8
Righteousness is a gift of God
Romans 5:16-17
The Holy Spirit is a gift of God
1 Thessalonians 4:8
Thanks for your time.
I've been away for a couple of weeks, but it's good to be back. I have enjoyed reading everyone's comments, and it has helped strengthen my beliefs as well. I believe eternal security to be a Bibilcal Doctrine. We think that Jesus just died to forgive us for our sins. Jesus died to give us the opportunity of a relationship with God through Him. Salvation is not about forgiveness, it is about a relationship. And with that relationship, yes, comes forgiveness, life, joy, and eternal salvation (and much much more I might add). Scripture then describes us, not as enemies of God, but as children of God. I have two beautiful little girls. They are my children. They can run away, spit at me, and at times break my heart, but they don't have to come to me and ask to be my children again. That was taken care of by a matter that was out of their hands. As a child of God, when we sin, we do not need salvation again, we need forgiveness. To lose my salvation would mean that God would look at me, as His child, and say to me, "you're no longer my child". That's the whole meaning behind being "born again". To be born into the family of God as a child of the King, an eternal status that can never be changed.
Brad
I think everyone has posted about anything i could say on this subject, so I'll just say, ditto.
It is good to see that you agree with me Russ!
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